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Steinmetz Core Losses

Hi everyone,

I´m simulating the magnetic behaviour in a varying frequency on some cores but I've got a restriction.

I have understood that, if I want to simulate a core in a certain frequency to get core losses, I would have to introduce the B(H) curve in the material expecifications (for the same frequency).

I use to fill the 'Isotropic Spline Saturation' gaps with 'Sine wave magnetic field', adding the 6 Modified Bertotti losses coefficients.

But what if I got B(H) information for only 1Hz - 10kHz range? How can I calcule the losses for 150kHz?

Is there any way to draw upon of Steinmetz or another technique in FLUX?

Thanks

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Alejandro Rodríguez

Hi Andoni,

You are right, if you want to get a simulation as accurate as possible you should use the B(H) curve corresponding with your working frequency. This will affect not only your iron losses but also the global accuracy of your simulation.

At the best of my knowledge, it is difficult to estimate B(H) curve at 150 kHz when you only have information for a much lower range. I am sorry but I cannot help with this part.

Anyway, the good new is Bertotti model already considers the effect of frequency, as you can see in the formulation of Bertotti’s equation used in Flux:

It is worthwhile to notice that Bertotti’s coefficients are taken as frequency independent. This approach usually works well, except when you reach elevate values of frequency.

Best regards,

Alejandro

Andoni Garcia

Hi Andoni,

You are right, if you want to get a simulation as accurate as possible you should use the B(H) curve corresponding with your working frequency. This will affect not only your iron losses but also the global accuracy of your simulation.

At the best of my knowledge, it is difficult to estimate B(H) curve at 150 kHz when you only have information for a much lower range. I am sorry but I cannot help with this part.

Anyway, the good new is Bertotti model already considers the effect of frequency, as you can see in the formulation of Bertotti’s equation used in Flux:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

It is worthwhile to notice that Bertotti’s coefficients are taken as frequency independent. This approach usually works well, except when you reach elevate values of frequency.

Best regards,

Alejandro

Thanks for your kind answer Alejandro.

I've been working just on that with the Modified Bertotti model:

I took one core and I calculed experimentally the iron losses on 50Hz & 1kHz.

Afterwards, with those values I obtained the Modified Bertotti modified for each frequencies.

The issue is that, if you draw the real B(P) curve (1kHz) against Modif Bertotti f parameters obtained in 50Hz curve using for 1kHz, the fuction deviates 14% from the real values. So althought it seems to be the most viable option, it wouldn't be a precise solution.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

Alejandro Rodríguez

Hi Andoni,

I fully agree with you. It is really complicated to obtain accurate values for a given frequency when your losses have been measured at another different frequency, errors as high as 14% can be expected.

Actually, we have another remark in the forum about this kind of effects (in this case, the problem was about local spatial effects that may change losses in particular areas of the device, even if the material does not change: Lamination Punching Edges & Packaging: Investigation / Consideration).

Unfortunately, I cannot propose you a better alternative. This subject stills a field of study with more questions than answers.

Best regards,

Iñigo

Hi Alejandro,

Is there a possibility to generate a 'new feature request' over this topic? It would be very very helpful to have the possibility to insert the material loss model based on on manufacturer provided (or easily user fitted) Steinmetz Coefficients. Particularly for the design of ferrite magnetics, iron powder magnetics and amorphous materials and other components for DC/DC , wireless power transfer etc.

Ovando_RBB

@Iñigo

I completely agree with you; nowadays there’s a wealth of information available on power losses in ferrite core materials and it varies significantly depending on the manufacturer.

Some manufacturers that provide particularly good data on core losses as a function of frequency and magnetic flux density include Ferroxcube, Fair-Rite, and Magnetics. Their technical documentation is quite comprehensive and reliable.

It’s an important topic that still isn’t widely discussed, especially at a time when we have only a hand full number of ferrite suppliers and a growing community focused on achieving maximum efficiency with minimal manufacturer resources.